Brainard joins us to discuss the agreement between President Biden and Speaker Kevin McCarthy to raise the debt ceiling.

• Jayapal: 'Really unfortunate' Biden 'opened the door' to new work requirements
• Key Democratic leader: 'I don't know yet' if I support debt ceiling deal
• Tapper asks Democratic lawmaker if White House should worry about Progressive Caucus. Hear her response 
• 'What was all the drama for?': Progressive leader Jayapal reacts to debt deal

I now turn to Congresswoman and Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal, who has had concerns about some of the measures that ended up in this bill.

Congresswoman, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Congresswoman, so the specific legislative language still being worked on. President Biden says this agreement is a compromise, which means not everyone gets what they want. You just heard Congressman Johnson say Democrats didn't get anything in the deal.

Are you going to support the -- he also said that he thinks you're going to vote against it. How are you going to vote?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, I don't know yet, Jake, because I haven't seen the text. You know I'm not a big fan of in principle or frameworks. That's always a problem if you can't see the exact legislative text. And we're all trying to wade through spin right now. I think that's

certainly what you heard from my good colleague on the other side of the aisle, is a lot of spin. But I think it's going to come down to what the legislative text is.

I think, at the end of the day, though, the American people have to understand that we are at the brink of default. We don't have a deal yet. We're not sure how many Republican votes can be produced. And it is all because Republicans said that they wanted to cut the deficit. And let's be clear that what they got from this was not that. They may have gotten other things.

[09:10:00]

I'm not happy with some of the things I'm hearing about, but they are not cutting the deficit and they are not cutting spending, because, if you think about the fact that they have agreed to increase Pentagon spending, number one, they have agreed to increase VA spending, number two, and while there are some fiscal calculations that are being made around what nondefense discretionary spending is -- and, by the way, for people that are listening to that -- that's a lot of mumbo jumbo.

That's basic spending on things like health care, education, childcare. All the things you care about is what Republicans want to cut. And they even took back $10 billion from the IRS that was supposed to go to taking on wealthy tax cheats in order to make regular Americans pay for wealthy people to be able to continue to get tax breaks.

So I think that you got to ask yourself, what was all the drama for? Because they didn't get what they said they wanted. We knew that was never actually what was on the table.

TAPPER: So, the deal, as you know, expands food stamp work requirements for able-bodied adults under 55 who do not have dependents. This goes throughout 2030. This excludes veterans and those experiencing homelessness.

You have said that your caucus would not support a bill with work requirements that -- quote -- "hurt poor people." Does this deal do that? Is this a deal-breaker for you?

JAYAPAL: I don't know because I haven't seen the language.

And what -- first of all, let me say, terrible policy, absolutely terrible policy, does not reduce spend, actually, by some estimates, creates a burden on administrative spending that is actually worse for the overall cost of a program like that.

Number two, it is about people who are hungry, people who just need a little bit of temporary assistance. And we are one of the only countries in the world, if not the only country in the world, that is an industrialized country that puts any requirements on people who just want food, so very bad policy, does not save money, and, by the way, does not work. We have seen reams of data that show that, when you put these work

requirements in, they're really just administrative red tape that prevent the people who need help from getting help.

What I'm not sure on and what I'm looking at right now -- and I need to see the legislative text -- is what it means in terms of the exemptions that were put in for veterans, for folks who are experiencing homelessness, for people who are coming out of foster care. Those are three exemptions that were included.

And so what do the numbers look like at the end of the day, I'm not sure. However, it is bad policy. I told the president that directly when he called me last week on Wednesday that this is saying to poor people and people who are in need that we don't trust them.

And the average amount of assistance for snap, for example, is $6 a day, Jake. I mean, we're talking about $6 a day. And I think it is really unfortunate that the president opened the door to this. And while, at the end of the day, perhaps this will -- because of the exemptions, perhaps it will be OK, I can't commit to that. I really don't know.

And our caucus -- and it's not just the progressives -- across the ideological spectrum, including Problem Solvers, by the way, people feel that this is bad policy.

TAPPER: So...

JAYAPAL: So, it's very unfortunate that it's even made its way into the discussion, frankly.

TAPPER: So -- but what I'm hearing from you, though, is that if the exemptions are as I described, which for homeless, for veterans, it's possible that you're willing to hold your nose and vote for it to avoid a default.

And, again, it all depends on what you see in the text. I -- nobody should take anything as cement -- as cemented in...

JAYAPAL: Yes. I just -- I just...

TAPPER: Go ahead.

JAYAPAL: That's right. That's right.

No, I just don't know because the numbers of people that are affected are -- is really what this is -- we have to look at that. And if there is -- anyway, I don't want to get into suppositions, because I just need to see the text. And that's the other thing.

How is it possible that we are at a place where the debt ceiling -- and, by the way, Jake, two countries in the world have a debt ceiling, the United States and I think it's Denmark. And they do not -- they tie it to a percentage of GDP, debt to a percentage of GDP.

And our net interest payments have actually -- are below what the historical 50-year average is.

TAPPER: Yes.

JAYAPAL: So, it's ridiculous that we're even in this situation.

TAPPER: But why didn't Democrats -- why didn't -- why didn't -- sure, but, like, you guys controlled the House, the Senate and the White House until January. Why didn't you just take care of this in November or December?

JAYAPAL: Well, as you know, that's what I pushed for. That's what the Progressive Caucus put in our lame-duck agenda that was published.

TAPPER: I know, but why didn't they?

[09:15:00]

JAYAPAL: Well, I think it's because we didn't have 50 votes in the Senate.

Unfortunately, we are also governed by a couple of conservative Democrats and/or independents in the Senate who refuse to take the actions that we need to take. And that's -- I think that's why we ended up in the situation we're in.

That's why we need a bigger majority in the Senate of people who are actually going to continue to do what the country needs and what our constitutional obligation is, because, listen, the debt ceiling -- and we have explained this ad nauseam, but I just think it's important to say it again.

We go through an appropriations process. You know this very well, Jake. We go through an appropriations process. We argue that is where the majority in the House and the Senate get to figure out...

TAPPER: Legislate, right.

JAYAPAL: ... who is going to negotiate what, right?

TAPPER: Right.

JAYAPAL: And -- legislate, exactly.

And at the end of that process, we come up with something. We pass it through a budget.

TAPPER: Yes.

JAYAPAL: We pass appropriations bills. And the debt ceiling is essentially about implementing what Congress has already passed.

TAPPER: Yes. No, it's paying for bills, paying for money already spent.

JAYAPAL: And to somehow use that...

TAPPER: Yes, 100 percent.

JAYAPAL: That's right.

And I think, at the end of the day, this is going to make it easier, hopefully, to take the debt ceiling off the table permanently. Brendan Boyle, our ranking member on Budget, has a great bill -- I'm a co- sponsor of that bill -- to give the authority to the Treasury secretary to be able to just raise the debt ceiling in accordance with whatever Congress has passed.

TAPPER: So...

JAYAPAL: That's really all we're saying, is, Congress passes this stuff. It should just be raised automatically.

TAPPER: Quick question.

JAYAPAL: We should not allow people to continue to take us hostage.

TAPPER: Quick question before you go, Congresswoman.

Speaker McCarthy, he briefed House Republicans last night. House Democrats aren't scheduled to be briefed until 5:00 p.m. later today. Have you spoken with Democratic Leader Jeffries or President Biden since the deal was announced last night?

JAYAPAL: I have not spoken with either of them, though I have been texting with Leader Jeffries.

However, I did get a lengthy briefing from a top White House official. Lael Brainard called me immediately when the deal was released last night to tell me. It sounds like perhaps not everybody was on the same page in terms of when the deal was going to be announced. And I think that there was supposed to be a final review.

So I think it got announced to Republicans quicker than was expected. But I did get a briefing. I still have questions, though. And, at the end of the day, I don't like frameworks. I think they are really problematic in terms of being able to make a decision. It's fine to say we have reached an agreement in principle, but all of the text matters.

And there are so many pieces of this that we need to look at in terms of what the spending is exactly like, because my understanding is, we're essentially held harmless at '23 levels. It will -- it is still not ideal, but not that different than what a C.R. would be.

TAPPER: So...

JAYAPAL: I think, for me, the big questions are around, what is the -- what are the changes to NEPA? I understand they're pretty minor, but I'd like to see those.

TAPPER: Yes.

JAYAPAL: And, then, what does this work requirements piece look like? TAPPER: So, I know you hate it when I do this, but I'm going to give

you a yes-or-no question right now.

And the yes-or-no question is, all the Democrats...

JAYAPAL: I may or may not answer you.

TAPPER: Well, that's fair.

But Democrats watching right now at the White House, your friend Hakeem Jeffries, others, do they still have to worry about the Progressive Caucus and whether or not your caucus will support?

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: Yes, they do.

OK, Congresswoman Jayapal, thank you so much.

JAYAPAL: Yes, they have to worry. Yes.

TAPPER: Yes, they have to worry.

OK, well, you heard the lady.

Thank you so much, Congresswoman. Good to see you, as always.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Jake.